本人在美洲一段时间，了解一些拉美问题，以后会和网友陆续交流。但其实北美的问题也挺多挺严重，国内拼命美化和崇拜北美政治经济制度的人可能知道也可能不知道，知道的也有意无意予以忽略不提罢了。

上月二十七号，美国格林司潘老头吓坏了美国人，他警告要大幅削减婴儿潮人群的福利，因为其国家和企业的负担已经到了不胜负荷的地步了，再不做手术，美国经济这个病人就要出大事了。其实这并不仅仅是美国的问题，整个西方世界在六七十年代建立起来和社会主义阵营竞争的福利制度已经到了崩溃的边缘。

去年欧洲国家中的弱国意大利，西班牙，甚至强大如德国都先后爆发了巨大规模的退休人员抗议示威游行，就是因为政府已经再也无力负担沉重的社会福利体系，要大幅裁减求存了。当然，整个西方世界的福利病有深有浅，日本和美国是其中最为严重的，英法德意紧随其后，而瑞典和加拿大是病得最轻的，是仅有的两个结构性预算还没有到赤字的西方国家。

病入膏肓的我们就先不说了，就看看状态最好的加拿大的福利情况。很多新移民，包括很多国内的移民，就是冲着这“优越的资本主义福利制度”来的，期盼能在退休后继续享受到“天堂般的”西方生活。这完全可以理解，首先，因为八十年代以后官方民间崇拜西方的宣传，让中国人都认为西方就是天堂，就象西方在16到19世纪初对中国的向往一样。其次，能深入一点了解西方国家经济问题的国人又有几个百分点，加上国内社会主义福利制度被取消以后，现在也是手忙脚乱地不知搞什么样的福利才好，更是令人失望。

但是，即使情况最好的加拿大恐怕也要令他们失望了，因为按照现在的情况发展下去，如果加拿大政府不采取断然措施的话，其福利制度在二十年内必然崩溃，弄不好还要导致整个国民经济的崩溃。这好象是我们中国人八十年代初常听到的话。

什么导致西方世界如此严重的财政问题呢?

大家知道西方世界的富裕生活靠三个时期的发展建立起来:


1) 16世纪---18世纪: 征服美洲和非洲以后在这两个大洲野蛮残酷屠杀掠夺积累起来了巨大无比的财富。墨西哥史就提到西班牙人在那段时间从那就掠夺了超过五千吨的黄金和十万吨的白银。想想现在的各国央行才有多少吨的黄金。通过这些财富，西方和东方的强大中国和印度王国做公平贸易，奈何自己的产品又不行，结果贸易赤字年年，眼看老本都要输光了，公平贸易不能再继续下去了。

2) 18世纪---20世纪: 通过十八世纪中叶英国开始的工业革命，西方国家先后建立起了规模性的残酷剥削产业工人的早期现代工业，进而建立起了强大的国家军事机器而横行世界五大洲七大洋，通过先进的大炮加不平等条约大搞不公平贸易再次掠夺世界，这回西方世界是真发了巨财了，把世界的财富基本上集中到了西欧。富裕东方的财富被盘剥几尽，东方巨龙从此一蹶不振，印度象更被英国伸士驯服成了光懂得为主人卖力气干活的苦力了。 3) 20世纪---现在: 两次世界大战令欧洲国家元气大伤，但此后建立了以美国为首的西方世界为主宰的世界贸易体系，通过以前掠夺的巨大无比的金融财富，强大的工业生产基础，和自己建立的最有利的世界贸易规则，继续进行貌似公平的对落后国家的所谓自由贸易掠夺。虽然战后亚非拉相继独立，但没有能逃出这个所谓世界贸易制度的咀咒，结果半个世纪搞下来，穷国愈穷，富国愈富，财富还是更加集中到了西方世界世界的手上。

六十年代后，为了和较清贫的社会主义国家的全民福利相抗衡，赢的国内的政治舆论，西方国家纷纷改弦易辙，陆续改变了残酷剥削的方式，相继建立起了通过高税收维持的医疗福利制度，到九十年代初这一段时期相当成功，资本主义国家的老百姓确实收益非浅，过得有滋有味，继而沾沾自喜，看不起社会主义的穷朋友，对共产主义更是误解多多，不屑一顾。

苏联东欧社会主义阵营哪有象西方世界通过前期掠夺建立起来的那样的金山银山，中国就更不用说了，搞了45年，纵向比较还挺满意，横向比较就吓了一大跳，发现还是差挺远，政府和百姓都目光短浅，意志不坚，全自己把自己搞跨掉了。其实都是历史没学好，如果对资本主义国家的发家史有深入研究和了解的话，也许没有那么快就动摇了自己的信念。苏联东欧的领导人，知识分子和老百姓就是这样，见识越来越肤浅，结果后来就干脆把国家的政治经济命脉的决定权也交给西方国家算了，就这样全部崩溃，到此结束。

但其实这场大戏还远远没有落幕，以后还有很多剧情发展。因为在这场长达半个世纪的社会制度初期大竞争中，虽然西方世界目前基本上彻底搞垮了社会主义世界，但他们并非就能独善其身，其实也消耗得非常厉害，还为自己种下了崩溃的祸根，你以为西方世界建立这个竞争性的福利制度就不用付出了多大的代价吗? 你以为西方世界建立起来的如此“引人入胜”的奢侈浮华的生活环境，琳琅满目的众多奢侈消费品，普遍奢侈浪费的高标准生活方式不用付出多大的代价吗? 恰恰相反，代价太大太大了，代价可能最终也是---崩溃。正是成也萧何，败也萧何。

就拿加拿大来说，目前整个国民经济面临着这么几个和其它西方国家一样的无法回避的巨大挑战:

首先，战后两次巨大婴儿潮人群已经都陆续开始退休了，他们经历了西方国家最繁荣昌盛的当代发展时期，为他们国家的建设也算付出了一辈子，为资本主义世界战胜社会主义世界作出了巨大的贡献，当然，为了表彰自己的成就，他们也为了使自己能够在这个世界上过上最舒适的日子建立了一整套的最有利于的制度，包括政治上的发言权，经济上的决定权，还有社会财富的分配权。因为他们对国家的回报期望值太高，按他们自己的话说就是他们这辈子都“不愿意离开”自己建立起来的特权世界。

其次，由于国家的富有，个人发展和享受的观念导致了六十年代以后急剧衰退的加拿大女性的生育能力，由五十年代的3.9的生育率降到了现在的 0.4，如果近几年没有大量的外国移民到来，包括中国妇女的杰出贡献，加拿大现在的问题就要严重不知多少倍。最近加拿大人口研究机构调查出一个很有趣的结果，令他们感到有点绝望，那就是所有移民到加的外国女性，从踏上北美的土地上以后，生育率就开始急剧下降，移民代数越多，生育率就越低。这可如何是好? 按目前情况必须马上大量移民，但从自私自利的角度来想又不愿意让这么多异族来分享自己奢侈浪费的生活，因为那要既得利益阶层付出沉重代价的。

再次，就是人口比例的倒三角问题，这可是个要命的问题了。目前加拿大人口结构还是纺槌形，因为战后婴儿潮的尾声还在45岁，但按目前的发展，到 2025年，加拿大的人口比例将是一个倒金字塔，那就是说: 中老年人比青壮年人多，青壮年人比青少年多。50岁以上将超过40%，这就意味着要获取国家福利的人至少将达到全国人口的30%以上，如果加上失业的，不干活的，和半退休的，就要超过50%。大家如果知道所谓的西方福利制度不过就是中青年工作交税养退休老年人的话，
那么马上可以想到: 20-30%的中青年工作人口如何养70-80%的中老年和青少年吃饭人口。而且他们的将来由谁养，他们子女的数目比他们还少，命运在开他们的玩笑，所以加拿大的工作阶层怒吼: 太不公平了!

现在这些婴儿潮出来的人的寿命还特长，退休以后随便还得活个二三十年的光景，这下国家就要了命了。按他们的计算，福利制度刚开始建立的六十年代，国家在每人退休以后要付的退休金平均也不过7.5年，现在就不一样了，平均起码得付个15年，翻了一番，另外这些人每人每年光医疗费用都要上万加币。两样加起来，很容易算出国家的负担是多少，到时候国家的社会福利支出将超过GDP的30%，3千多个亿，国家那里负担得起。

即使加拿大的明白经济学家都知道问题已经严重到什么程度，但为什么到现在还没有任何改弦更张的措施呢? 很简单，只要从人性的角度分析就清楚。从整体上来说，目前加拿大的60年代以后出生的青壮年一代在社会的任何方面都没有发言权。因为，首先，他们不在国家政治经济的决策位置上，根本无法参与制订国家政策; 其次，他们人数还不如中老年人，光投票比例就输得精光。因为对国家前途没有说话权，所以他们越来越缺乏对国家的参与热情。最重要的就是中老年人不会放弃他们为自己所设计的一切最优惠的待遇，他们可不管身后洪水滔天，自己享受完了再说。

整个西方世界的问题基本一样，病入膏肓又没有解决药方，有药方医生也不敢下药。日本仗着前十几年国家私人存储起来的家当，可以再维持一段时间; 美国还享有美元霸权，还可以要多少印多少，美元霸权能维持多少天其制度还可以维持多少天，只是国家的财政赤字老是雪上加霜，但又没有别的出路。所以，从各方面来看，西方世界也已经不再是早上的太阳或者象国内崇拜者所说的如日中天，恰恰相反，也已经是昔日黄花，老之将至。西方有洞察力的人士也都知道问题的严重性，只是谁敢去说呢? 不给现在所谓主流骂死才怪呢，包括国内抱西方大脚的一批知识分子。

再说了，即使说了也没用啊，因为控制着一切西方国家资源命脉和制度决定权的人都是那个时代的。大家知道，现在国内极其崇拜西方的知识分子津津乐道的西方的优越性，西方世界的立国基础，就是他们捧了又捧，唱了又唱的“人性”啊: 一切以自己的利益为原则。你能期望那些从小受这种观念和教育洗脑的西方中老年人为他们的子孙后代着想而放弃他们要享受的一切吗? 那还不如杀了他们呢，他们还是那句话: 我死后哪管洪水滔天。资本世界的卫道者也只能扼腕长叹，正是成也萧何，败也萧何，如之可奈何。

PS: 不晓得欧洲，但在美国，已经开始消失。大学开始减少终身教授，连政府也越来越多的用承包商（减少有高福利的雇员）。越来越少的公司有退休金，并把传统的退休金改成新的对公司风险小的，社会安全和联邦的老年保险(Medicare)过20年，可能还不到，就要破产。医疗费用每年上涨15%。。。

不同意此文的大部分观点。
此文作者多半是看了很多的北美，尤其是中文站的贴子，听了很多的对加医疗一知半解的新移民的牢骚。
欧洲和美国，我没生活过，不敢多谈。但是从最近看到的一篇research来讲，
法国对全民福利是最乐观的，英国形势喜忧参半，美国最差。
至于加拿大，
1977年在医疗福利的现金支出上，联邦负担了50％
而70年代末，八十年代初全国逐渐实行全民医保以后，联邦支出大大减少，
至2000年，联邦仅仅负担了约15％
（以上数据出自[url="http://www.medicare.ca"]www.medicare.ca[/url])

加拿大的全民福利制度不仅仅是加拿大的一个标志，也是一种荣誉，它的成功为世人公认。加拿大用占全民GDP9.8%的钱解决了全民的医疗问题，而美国呢，13.9％的GDP也不过是解决了4千万买不起医保的国民的保险问题。医保已经成为美国的一大社会问题，以至于克里大声嚷嚷着，要让全民都能享受医保，以此拉选票，不过，他目前无法提出什么具体有效的方案。搞得老百姓半信半疑。说远了。

至于说加人口老年化严重，没错。婴儿潮已经到了老龄期，的的确确是增添了医疗系统的负担。但是奇怪的是，作者就不会想一想，这占人口40%以上的50岁以上的人口（且不论这个数据来源是否可靠），难道都是石头里面蹦出来，跳到这个世界来享受老年医保的么？他们工作的数十年所交纳的税收呢？他们准备了大半辈子的退休福利呢？作者想到了这里面有白吃白喝一辈子的主，却没有想到还有更多上了一辈子班的人，这个思维，奇了。

再者，如果作者真是那么的关心福利问题，怎么连最近最起码的premiers的会议都不提一提？可见他的这些观点也不过是东拼西凑。加拿大报纸几乎每天都有医保福利的新闻，讨论。从联邦会议到sj急诊所有个风吹草动，那股子高度关心翻来复去的劲头，恐怕不是在轻轻松松的唱唱高调那么简单。premier今年的会议，是加医疗体系的重要转折点，马上面临医疗系统的大改动。但是全民医保福利的宗旨，绝不会变，改革，就是为了这个体系能继续为下一代服务，更好的服务。注意，这个是4，50岁的premiers们说的，不是婴儿潮里的老头。

作者说加拿大60年代以后出生的人没有发言权，也不感兴趣去发言。我不知道这种理论有何根据？照年龄看他们现在正是三，四十，正是各行各业骨干的年龄，何来没有发言权的结论？中国人爱说走一步看三步，老外也许头脑简单点，但是我实在想不出有什么样的理由让这样的人不关心他现在和未来漫长的福利问题，一点不去考虑他退休以后看病住院的费用，以及他的子女的未来福利问题。如果一个人说他不关心政治，那大家都可以理解，如果一个人，一代人，说他们不关心自己会不会生病，老了怎么办，这实在是奇谈怪论。

新移民不清楚情况，才来的时候有所抱怨，这是难免的。感冒了，去诊所看病，医生不开抗菌素，不给打针，或者在急诊室等久了，就发牢骚了。说国内挂了号就看，想打针就打针。但是牢骚归牢骚，冷静下来想想，不给胡乱打抗菌素出发点是为了你的体质着想，谁愿意最后体内生出了超强细菌病毒，到时候打什么什么都没用啊。急诊室等久了，原因是这里的医生护士实在太精贵，太少。而非是像国内某些情况：医生在等着你的红包，或者护士在聊天偷懒。从这点考虑，是不是会心里舒服一点呢？

这里的税的确是高。但是这里的人也享有全世界数一数二的医疗待遇和福利。今天大家和家人可能都很健康，交了那么多的税，觉得吃了亏。但是真要到了有个什么大病小灾的时候（大吉利是），作为移民的你，很可能会万幸你到了这片土地，你不用为庞大的医疗支出而倾家荡产，焦头烂额。也不用上演其他国家，包括中国，每天都会上演的医院里的人间悲剧。

最后说一句，我知道这帖只是转贴，我在这里也就是说说个人意见，就事论事。与政治，爱国话题等等完全无关。

再说了，福保问题不是从经济学的角度就可以解决改善的。这是个综合社会问题，这帖放在财经版，恐怕是不大合适。

As far as I entered the center of the capitalist society, I figure out that the main points of the article I past at here are right. I do not sure Mr/Miss 愫苏 already have a full time job or did you do some reserach among the labors in the city you are living in.

But the facts are, as far as one day I am working with my employees: as far as I realized that the secial security benefits are not welcome to everyone, I think one day if you are working 10-12 hours and figure out you could not have that kind of benefit until you retired in the age of 70! I think you may also make the agurements.

When you see a couple of old men whom are over 50 years and still working in stores and sleeping on the carpets even at this time! I hope you can in the position!

[quote name='愫苏']再说了，福保问题不是从经济学的角度就可以解决改善的。这是个综合社会问题，这帖放在财经版，恐怕是不大合适。[/QUOTE]

well, if the social secutiry benefit can not be deal in economicial aspect, how could you deal with the currency problems and benefit programs just in the eyes of political and social science, as this phonomeon involence the currency, why it can not be a economical topic, i think if you have the time and chance, you can ask the same question to your professors as I provide the queestion at here.

[quote name='卧看春秋负平生']As far as I entered the center of the capitalist society, I figure out that the main points of the article I past at here are right. I do not sure Mr/Miss 愫苏 already have a full time job or did you do some reserach among the labors in the city you are living in.

But the facts are, as far as one day I am working with my employees: as far as I realized that the secial security benefits are not welcome to everyone, I think one day if you are working 10-12 hours and figure out you could not have that kind of benefit until you retired in the age of 70! I think you may also make the agurements.

When you see a couple of old men whom are over 50 years and still working in stores and sleeping on the carpets even at this time! I hope you can in the position![/QUOTE]

这回帖的火药味可不轻哦。不是早说了吗？我也就是发表一下个人意见，论坛论坛，大家公平讨论，犯的着那么酸溜溜的拿着火药上战场吗？

首先，本人向来一城市贫民，谁说的我有全日制工作了？谁说我和谁急。楼主好像对一个非移民的但是居住在这里的人关心这里的问题颇有些微词，这也奇了，就许你关心不许我看看啊？

2。说"did some research"，不敢。不过本人正好向来对于医保福利这方面的东西很感兴趣，最近正好也在写一个关于这方面的一个paper，案头也正好有打印出的researchs数十份。要不谁去记那些数字。因为最近老看这方面的资料对这个话题也自然很敏感。所以刚才没有忍住，热血上涌，回复了一堆。因为这样偏激而没有论据的东西实在是太滥了！其实以我以往的经验，早就知道不管写什么有些人也只是会简单的全盘否定。不过没关系，大家看到了就行，两面的观点都放在一起了，这样才是一个健全的论坛。否则咱们这论坛就成单手操纵了，有啥意思？？
再说了，如果又是那些什么狗屁文革好文革妙的帖子，谁才有那个闲心搭理！（没有保持住风度，抱歉抱歉）

3。关于您的论点，我仍然要驳：“as far as I realized that the secial security benefits are not welcome to everyone,”唉，语法错误咱们就不谈了。只想问一问是不是写太急已经昏了头的楼主，请教您有那一种社会福保制度会让“每”一个人“都”欢迎，“都”满意？
“ I think one day if you are working 10-12 hours and figure out you could not have that kind of benefit until you retired in the age of 70! ”一天工作10到12个小时，楼主是在咒我么？我现在是没工作，毕业了会混的那么惨么？我就不约您拭目以待了，不知道是谁呢？没那必要。再说了，请问您指的是那种福利？如果指的是那种到了70岁张口吃饭不用干活的那种，对不起，我根本就不去想这样的“施舍”。就算70岁了也没有必要去想。我现在有手有脚，受过教育，怎么不能自己养活自己？70岁以后我享受的是自己以前纳税和工作应得之回报，我拿得心安理得，不是白瞎！不过这到是提醒我了，原来您的的“福利”就是这么回事儿啊，这回我可真的白瞎了。

既然这样，您最后那段充满了感情的预言我也就不和您计较了。美国版的咒怨我刚刚看完，至少还给了我几小时的心里震撼。您这个中国版的嘛，一点也没有新意，泼妇骂街我以前也见过，讶异？同情？鄙视？我也就路过算了。

最后我不得不说，非常惊讶卧先生/或卧小姐？使用了英文回复。出于本人对于英文向来不是那么自信，请恕我在这里还是用母语来表达自己的观点了。至于卧先生/卧小姐的英文水平，和您向来执着的打击一切所有异己观点的态度一样，在下实在是佩服。了得，了得。

[QUOTE]这是个综合社会问题[/QUOTE]
你下次看清楚别人怎么写再发飙也不迟

Well, It is a truths that there are many grammar mistakes in my words, because of I haven't use computer and writing essays almost two months, second, the computer I use now does not have Chinese writing program, I could not write in Chinese (although I want).

As the basically purpose for I post the article at here is for let the people who are interesting in the social security benefit problems can have a chance to show his or her ideas. I just provide my experiences and my opinions, and Mr. /Miss 愫苏 can also provide yours, but this issue does not mean I could not question and make arguments about your words. Definitely, most of us are not the citizens of Canada and U.S.A, but the benefits those be earned by capitalists in North America come form the people like us! May be you did not realize how many illegal immigrations contribute to these countries, and how many of them come form China, Mexico and other developing countries.

As you mention you did do some research about the social security benefits in North America, I suggest you could not only stay in library, do researches on Web sites and interview some "guy" whom already have nice life and enjoy their social security benefits. I think you have to go to super market like "Sobey’s" or may be you can interview some taxi drivers, you also can taking some part time jobs in Dollar store like cashers, good clarks,waiteress. I think you also can go to the bar or interview some table dancing girls in midnight (if you want).

If your paper and information are just from some Web sits or library, I am sorry to say they are blank and tasteless like water eventually it has twenty pages long. You better throw them into your garbage cans. To be honest, I say these words do not mean I omit your working, but I meant you put your energy in wrong place, you focus on incorrect areas. If you just make some conversations and interview with the people are be arranged or they are sit in the upper level, I am sure your research paper will full of the words to represent their satisfy about their social security benefits.

I am sorry to tell some "childish" people the truths, at this point, the world "childish" I used do not mean his or her age, I mean the method he or she used to do research is puzzling on the surface or just stopping in the papers, as you gentleman or lady do the researches in the topic of "Social Security Benefit", I do the same one, but as far as I am working with my employees daily, I have more authority to describe the truths-------how did capitalists robbed benefits from employers and the "social Security Benefit" is going to became dream instead of the fact.

I do not picture the future of others, but I can image for peoples' feedback, this is a really good knowledge I learned since I am working in Fashion, New York. Despite of the lady or Gentleman like you or me, I already have two master and one MBA employees, there is a thing very funny, they eventually do not know how to put cans and tissue papers in right locations in my store; but my teacher, a 55 years old Chinese man, know nothing about English, illegal people, no ID or passport, he can put all of the goods all by himself, I wonder: what the hell (sorry for I use a nasty word)did these high educational information workers( as text book define) learn in the school? Funny, funny, really funny.

Another thing I want to add is, when Mr./Miss 愫苏 do the researches, please think about the situation of immigrants whose years are over 40, and please care about the people whom does not have social security number. If you do research, please do not just lock yourself in the noises form some laying Medias.

[quote name='卧看春秋负平生']Well, It is a truths that there are many grammar mistakes in my words, because of I haven't use computer and writing essays almost two months, second, the computer I use now does not have Chinese writing program, I could not write in Chinese (although I want).

As the basically purpose for I post the article at here is for let the people who are interesting in the social security benefit problems can have a chance to show his or her ideas. I just provide my experiences and my opinions, and Mr. /Miss 愫苏 can also provide yours, but this issue does not mean I could not question and make arguments about your words. Definitely, most of us are not the citizens of Canada and U.S.A, but the benefits those be earned by capitalists in North America come form the people like us! May be you did not realize how many illegal immigrations contribute to these countries, and how many of them come form China, Mexico and other developing countries.

As you mention you did do some research about the social security benefits in North America, I suggest you could not only stay in library, do researches on Web sites and interview some "guy" whom already have nice life and enjoy their social security benefits. I think you have to go to super market like "Sobey’s" or may be you can interview some taxi drivers, you also can taking some part time jobs in Dollar store like cashers, good clarks,waiteress. I think you also can go to the bar or interview some table dancing girls in midnight (if you want).

If your paper and information are just from some Web sits or library, I am sorry to say they are blank and tasteless like water eventually it has twenty pages long. You better throw them into your garbage cans. To be honest, I say these words do not mean I omit your working, but I meant you put your energy in wrong place, you focus on incorrect areas. If you just make some conversations and interview with the people are be arranged or they are sit in the upper level, I am sure your research paper will full of the words to represent their satisfy about their social security benefits.

I am sorry to tell some "childish" people the truths, at this point, the world "childish" I used do not mean his or her age, I mean the method he or she used to do research is puzzling on the surface or just stopping in the papers, as you gentleman or lady do the researches in the topic of "Social Security Benefit", I do the same one, but as far as I am working with my employees daily, I have more authority to describe the truths-------how did capitalists robbed benefits from employers and the "social Security Benefit" is going to became dream instead of the fact.

I do not picture the future of others, but I can image for peoples' feedback, this is a really good knowledge I learned since I am working in Fashion, New York. Despite of the lady or Gentleman like you or me, I already have two master and one MBA employees, there is a thing very funny, they eventually do not know how to put cans and tissue papers in right locations in my store; but my teacher, a 55 years old Chinese man, know nothing about English, illegal people, no ID or passport, he can put all of the goods all by himself, I wonder: what the hell (sorry for I use a nasty word)did these high educational information workers( as text book define) learn in the school? Funny, funny, really funny.

Another thing I want to add is, when Mr./Miss 愫苏 do the researches, please think about the situation of immigrants whose years are over 40, and please care about the people whom does not have social security number. If you do research, please do not just lock yourself in the noises form some laying Medias.[/QUOTE]卧看是先生， 愫苏是小姐

这是是中文的输入法　[url="http://hlbr.onlinedown.net/down/unispim30.exe"]http://hlbr.onlinedown.net/down/unispim30.exe[/url] 试试看可不可以用

卧看的英文水平令人敬佩,看来现在的工作确实屈才了.

羊毛出在羊身上

福利制度，只是一种保障体系，说白了是富人拿钱出来，通过国家来，分给穷人，或者是有需要的人，当然怎么分才是学问，分多了，“穷人”会越来越多，分少了“有需要的人”得不到保障。


各国都在努力寻找其平衡点。

加拿大的福利好，但并不是理想的国家。它占GDP低，说明它的福利开支很少，但也给人福利好的感觉，我觉得和这里的环境啊，国家的文化，也有很大关系，并不单单是福利制度的问题。道可以说明一个问题这里的贫富差距并不是很大.

这么说话题又扯到非法移民这一块儿了
这么个扯法没完没了。如果卧先生的本意是要为下层人民，尤其是为了美国非法移民的医疗福利申冤呐喊。这可是完全不一样的话题了，我汗颜了，我没有一点法律知识背景，这个话题我可不能和您讨论了。
既然这样，那一开头怎么不早说呢？您开篇讲的是欧洲，北美，加拿大，接下来预测的是我这种天真烂漫的小人物的悲惨下场，第三帖用您结合生活和工作在法拉盛的丰富经验告诉我这个象牙塔里的小女生，知识和真像是存在于实践中的，要去劳苦大众中找真理。啊，STATISTIC CANADA原来都是白瞎的。大家要了解什么问题，走上街头问问，采访一下，就最真实了。什么APA也是没有的，反正那些个写东西的人，都是上层阶级，吃好住好，他们说的话根本不能信。我不由得不去再去联想，如果我再和您再就这个问题讨论下去，下次你又会把话题转移到哪里呢？
我转不过您，您自己跳舞吧

我在美国零零碎碎加起来，呆了八个月，就是纽约，新泽西。我做过dollar店casher，当过餐馆的小妹。我也有住在法拉盛的非法移民朋友。你把我想成什么样，I DON'T CARE，我只能说，和你说话，真费劲儿！

Well, as people say:" no pay no gain." May the computers and pens are a little stronger to my hand, but they are more approach to my mind. I gained more in my daily workings, missions and jobs.

Althrough curreny live could not compare the past days I was in Saint John, but it is better that I could earn 2000 dollars a month at least. Anyway, for keep my writting style and rules: Foucs on peoples' words instead of points to theirselves, I am going to post and write everything I met uder this rope.

May be, all of you just think this question form the natives, but i am afraid you ignore the Immigrations and illedaly Immigrations, their benefits. Like Lady 愫苏 or me was working in China for 40 years, the Canadian or American possibily may not approve your working records while we were in China, or it means what you did in China can not be add into your history due do they are not the contributions to Canada and U.S.A.

After all, I should because of I could not review the Web site everyday, so I hope i could show you some "turth" I touch.(may be some one think there were joks or lying).

The end of a party is sad, but to Z2 and other one, as you are in the party now just enjoy it, as a person left Saint John, I only have the rights to tell what I met and found out. It is not a terrible thing to figure out the turth, but may be it is risky to avoid the fact.

[quote name='z2']

福利制度，只是一种保障体系，说白了是富人拿钱出来，通过国家来，分给穷人，或者是有需要的人，当然怎么分才是学问，分多了，“穷人”会越来越多，分少了“有需要的人”得不到保障。

各国都在努力寻找其平衡点。

加拿大的福利好，但并不是理想的国家。它占GDP低，说明它的福利开支很少，但也给人福利好的感觉，我觉得和这里的环境啊，国家的文化，也有很大关系，并不单单是福利制度的问题。道可以说明一个问题这里的贫富差距并不是很大.[/QUOTE]

为这种中肯的意见鼓掌。

[quote name='愫苏']这么说话题又扯到非法移民这一块儿了
这么个扯法没完没了。如果卧先生的本意是要为下层人民，尤其是为了美国非法移民的医疗福利申冤呐喊。这可是完全不一样的话题了，我汗颜了，我没有一点法律知识背景，这个话题我可不能和您讨论了。
既然这样，那一开头怎么不早说呢？您开篇讲的是欧洲，北美，加拿大，接下来预测的是我这种天真烂漫的小人物的悲惨下场，第三帖用您结合生活和工作在法拉盛的丰富经验告诉我这个象牙塔里的小女生，知识和真像是存在于实践中的，要去劳苦大众中找真理。啊，STATISTIC CANADA原来都是白瞎的。大家要了解什么问题，走上街头问问，采访一下，就最真实了。什么APA也是没有的，反正那些个写东西的人，都是上层阶级，吃好住好，他们说的话根本不能信。我不由得不去再去联想，如果我再和您再就这个问题讨论下去，下次你又会把话题转移到哪里呢？
我转不过您，您自己跳舞吧

我在美国零零碎碎加起来，呆了八个月，就是纽约，新泽西。我做过dollar店casher，当过餐馆的小妹。我也有住在法拉盛的非法移民朋友。你把我想成什么样，I DON'T CARE，我只能说，和你说话，真费劲儿！[/QUOTE]

Well, the illegal immigrations and immigrations basically are the main topics in American Society Security Benefit. Besides, eventually the native labors also faced same harshes when they are getting old.

I think you should read the paper I post carfully, at the beging of the article, the problems of immigrations and illegaly ones are already be intrduced. I am afriad of you did not read that part, anyway.

There is a serious problem I find that is many students admire the paper datas so much! I think some one should clearfiy one thing, people are lives, papers are liveless. If you only in the circle of APA and data, I'd say: blank data and gerbage paper information.

As you mentation: you used to working fashion as casher, so which one are you working in?

[quote name='卧看春秋负平生']Well, as people say:" no pay no gain." May the computers and pens are a little stronger to my hand, but they are more approach to my mind. I gained more in my daily workings, missions and jobs.

Althrough curreny live could not compare the past days I was in Saint John, but it is better that I could earn 2000 dollars a month at least. Anyway, for keep my writting style and rules: Foucs on peoples' words instead of points to theirselves, I am going to post and write everything I met uder this rope.

May be, all of you just think this question form the natives, but i am afraid you ignore the Immigrations and illedaly Immigrations, their benefits. Like Lady 愫苏 or me was working in China for 40 years, the Canadian or American possibily may not approve your working records while we were in China, or it means what you did in China can not be add into your history due do they are not the contributions to Canada and U.S.A.

After all, I should because of I could not review the Web site everyday, so I hope i could show you some "turth" I touch.(may be some one think there were joks or lying).

The end of a party is sad, but to Z2 and other one, as you are in the party now just enjoy it, as a person left Saint John, I only have the rights to tell what I met and found out. It is not a terrible thing to figure out the turth, but may be it is risky to avoid the fact.[/QUOTE]
您的英文是越来越高深了，我彻底跟不上了 “Like Lady 愫苏 or me was working in China for 40 years, the Canadian or American possibily may not approve your working records while we were in China, or it means what you did in China can not be add into your history due do they are not the contributions to Canada and U.S.A.”
啥意思？我都说了我没工作，我也很天真，年纪也不大，您可不要让人误会了我已经有四十年工龄了，太冤了我。到底是我误会了还是你写错了不重要，对我有好感的男性同胞们可不要误会啊

您这打的是什么工，一个月2000，毕业了？还是去打工？正式工作也就罢了，开头低点儿，后来幸许还能加，打工就太那个了，放着学不上完去瞎胡闹。唉。

[quote name='卧看春秋负平生']Well, the illegal immigrations and immigrations basically are the main topics in American Society Security Benefit. Besides, eventually the native labors also faced same harshes when they are getting old.

I think you should read the paper I post carfully, at the beging of the article, the problems of immigrations and illegaly ones are already be intrduced. I am afriad of you did not read that part, anyway.

There is a serious problem I find that is many students admire the paper datas so much! I think some one should clearfiy one thing, people are lives, papers are liveless. If you only in the circle of APA and data, I'd say: blank data and gerbage paper information.

As you mentation: you used to working fashion as casher, so which one are you working in?[/QUOTE]我再次仔细拜读了您转贴的帖子，找不到一个字提到非法移民。烦请您指将我看。以及他提到的非法移民问题。
我倒是常看到人说你不看回帖，我也深有同感。原来你不但不看回帖，自己贴的东西，也不看啊，佩服，佩服。

[quote name='卧看春秋负平生']As you mentation: you used to working fashion as casher, so which one are you working in?[/QUOTE]
哟，卧先生还想查户口来着？这个帖又水了，成搞笑版了。

[quote name='愫苏']哟，卧先生还想查户口来着？这个帖又水了，成搞笑版了。[/QUOTE]

It does not mean I want to check some one's background, I just wonder which dollar store he or she was working in Fashion: anyway, that is personal stuff. As I used to said :"Like Lady 愫苏 or me was working in China for 40 years, the Canadian or American possibily may not approve your working records while we were in China, or it means what you did in China can not be add into your history due do they are not the contributions to Canada and U.S.A.” This is a issue, of course, some one can survive dependencly for ** years. This is a common position.

BUt, someone's position does not equal most people who are working with me. Talking about my payment, I think this start is not bad, most of all, I figure out, some thing or some knowledge that some white elephts are now studying are usefulless. And those people just concern the "APA" and other red paper style, may be this kind of people would get more better begining, but anyway, I say they are just the media and dummy of a drama....

[quote name='卧看春秋负平生']It does not mean I want to check some one's background, I just wonder which dollar store he or she was working in Fashion: anyway, that is personal stuff. As I used to said :"Like Lady 愫苏 or me was working in China for 40 years, the Canadian or American possibily may not approve your working records while we were in China, or it means what you did in China can not be add into your history due do they are not the contributions to Canada and U.S.A.” This is a issue, of course, some one can survive dependencly for ** years. This is a common position.

BUt, someone's position does not equal most people who are working with me. Talking about my payment, I think this start is not bad, most of all, I figure out, some thing or some knowledge that some white elephts are now studying are usefulless. And those people just concern the "APA" and other red paper style, may be this kind of people would get more better begining, but anyway, I say they are just the media and dummy of a drama....[/QUOTE]唉，卧看先生，你那只眼睛看到我写我在法拉盛工作过了？纽约就只有法拉盛吗？首先，你这个不仔细看回帖，先入为主PLUS死不认错的毛病什么时候能改一改？其次，你这种不尊重人的态度实在是让会让每一个你讨论问题的人失去所有的耐心。你有没有想过，为什么基本上每次有人和你讨论，辩，最后都是这种人家不理你的结局？最后一个回帖不证明别人说不过你了，不过是实在再往下和你说，已经毫无意义！
我再说一遍，我没到40，你自己自说自话的英语我实在看不懂。英语我看不懂，数字不会错吧。一句话，你就是死不认错。
你一句话否定所有的学术，资料，学习的重要性。野蛮的就像红卫兵。话说到这个份上，辩论已经毫无意义了。说实话，我真还一直怀疑您是做时光隧道从文革那边蹦过来的。可怜的是你回不去了，往前走，你也不过是能说英文的僵化的七窍不通的木鱼脑袋。这么一想了，我还真打心眼里可怜你。

[IMG]http://photo.sohu.com/20041031/Img222769313.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://photo.sohu.com/20041031/Img222769312.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://photo.sohu.com/20041031/Img222769311.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://photo.sohu.com/20041031/Img222769310.jpg[/IMG]


遥远的paradise
今天万圣节，
让我怀念起了家驹。

[quote name='bee']

遥远的paradise
今天万圣节，
让我怀念起了家驹。[/QUOTE]

无厘头.......
哈哈哈哈

哎呦，多谢楼上的捧场，

我仔细拜读了一下,负先生您的英语实在不好理解.另外,您的文中fashion是不是flushing?如果是的话请不要再打错了.随便说说您别介意.

[quote name='愫苏']您的英文是越来越高深了，我彻底跟不上了 “Like Lady 愫苏 or me was working in China for 40 years, the Canadian or American possibily may not approve your working records while we were in China, or it means what you did in China can not be add into your history due do they are not the contributions to Canada and U.S.A.”
啥意思？
[/QUOTE]强！！！

鉴定完毕，评语如下：

负先生啊，鸟语不咋地没关系，可是出来糊弄人家苏小姐就是你的不对了。大家都知道你说的也挺有道理的。涉及到的也都是尖锐社会问题，真是一顶一的远见卓识目光远大关爱世界胸怀国家。像我们这些还在为了BLAW,JAVA能混个ABC发愁的草民们实在是佩服。不过中国人跟中国人讨论问题嘛，还是不要拽鸟语了，再说你那Chinglish的style确实得改改，要不咱装一下Z2给的输入法看看用回中文是不是还好使？

苏小姐啊，负先生一腔热血为非法移民抱不平也没什么坏心眼，谁看到海外的华人跟当地人受的待遇不平等都得怒一下不是？其实真正想不开的也不是负先生，是那些放着国内生活衣食无忧的日子不过非得想方设法削尖了脑袋也要跑来北美享受不平等待遇还叫唤的人。负先生现在是Working Class，月入2000哇！估计已经是某知名跨国大公司旗下一名堂堂正正的formal employee了，看问题跟我们这些只打过Labor最多做过Co-op的自然不在一个档次上。现在就像04大选旗鼓相当，不管谁输谁赢，那你也得学学John Kerry(我绝对支持他，可惜半数多的美国人不支持)，给负先生个台阶下下是不是？顺水推舟做好人了。

欢迎男女主角及各位忠实观众拍砖。谢谢。


PS.大段大段的英文回复就免了。我已经被M$的文档折磨得奄奄一息了，请负先生饶我不死。

[quote name='Brian']鉴定完毕，评语如下：

负先生啊，鸟语不咋地没关系，可是出来糊弄人家苏小姐就是你的不对了。大家都知道你说的也挺有道理的。涉及到的也都是尖锐社会问题，真是一顶一的远见卓识目光远大关爱世界胸怀国家。像我们这些还在为了BLAW,JAVA能混个ABC发愁的草民们实在是佩服。不过中国人跟中国人讨论问题嘛，还是不要拽鸟语了，再说你那Chinglish的style确实得改改，要不咱装一下Z2给的输入法看看用回中文是不是还好使？

苏小姐啊，负先生一腔热血为非法移民抱不平也没什么坏心眼，谁看到海外的华人跟当地人受的待遇不平等都得怒一下不是？其实真正想不开的也不是负先生，是那些放着国内生活衣食无忧的日子不过非得想方设法削尖了脑袋也要跑来北美享受不平等待遇还叫唤的人。负先生现在是Working Class，月入2000哇！估计已经是某知名跨国大公司旗下一名堂堂正正的formal employee了，看问题跟我们这些只打过Labor最多做过Co-op的自然不在一个档次上。现在就像04大选旗鼓相当，不管谁输谁赢，那你也得学学John Kerry(我绝对支持他，可惜半数多的美国人不支持)，给负先生个台阶下下是不是？顺水推舟做好人了。

欢迎男女主角及各位忠实观众拍砖。谢谢。


PS.大段大段的英文回复就免了。我已经被M$的文档折磨得奄奄一息了，请负先生饶我不死。[/QUOTE]

没错没错，批评的很对
我也都觉得前几天是太冲动了点，呵呵
卧看先生现在不回论坛了，这坛子都觉得冷清了呢:frown:
我说卧看啊，一个人在外面打工不容易，您可得保重了。欢迎您还是回来，大家一起讨论讨论这个，热点话题。
大实话，嘻嘻:biggrin: